ကခ်င္ျပည္တြင္းစစ္ႏွင့္ ပတ္သက္၍၊လန္ဒန္တကၠသိုလ္၊
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အေရွ႕တိုင္းႏွင့္ အာဖရိကေရးရာ ေလ့လာေရးဌာနမွ
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သုေသသနအရာရွိ ဂိုင္းေဟာ္တန္ ႏွင့္ ေတြ႕ဆံုေမးျမန္းျခင္း
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Q: We’re here with Guy Horton who recently returned from Northern Kachin State around the conflict area. Thank you for coming by.
GH: Thanks for inviting me.
ေမး - စစ္ပြဲေတြ ျဖစ္ပြားေနတဲ့ ကခ်င္ျပည္က မၾကာေသးခင္က ျပန္ေရာက္လာတဲ့ ဂိုင္းေဟာ္တန္ပါ။ ၾကြရာက္လာတဲ့အတြက္ ေက်းဇူးတင္ပါတယ္။
ေျဖ - ဖိတ္ၾကားတဲ့အတြက္ ေက်းဇူးပါ။
Q: Now while you were there, you spent a lot of time interviewing IDPs who’ve been exposed to conflict for about a year a half now. Tell me a little bit about what you saw and experienced while you were there?
GH: Where I was based, I was in air-shot of fairly continual heavy artillery fire and heavy mortar fire and it was gradually getting closer. So there was a sense of panic – controlled panic, I supposed I should say – in the area where I was but people were expecting the worst and the churches were opened – I noticed – 24 hours a day people were praying for protection, for deliverance and civilians were quietly preparing to fight which is why I’m particularly concerned that there may be some disastrous – humanitarian disaster at the end of all this.
ေမး - စစ္ေဘးဒဏ္ကို တစ္ႏွစ္ေက်ာ္ ခံစားေနခဲ့ၾကတဲ့ စစ္ေဘးေရွာင္လူထုကို အခ်ိန္ယူ ေတြ႕ဆံုေမးျမန္းခဲ့တယ္ ဆိုေတာ့ ဘာေတြျမင္ခဲ့သလဲ၊ ဘာေတြ ၾကံဳေတြ႕ခဲ့သလဲဆိုတာ နည္းနည္းေျပာျပပါဦး။
ေျဖ - က်ေနာ္ အဲဒီမွာ ရွိေနခ်ိန္မွာ ေလေၾကာင္းတိုက္ခုိက္မႈေတြ၊ အေျမာက္ေတြ၊ ေမာ္တာေတြနဲ႔ ျပင္းျပင္းထန္ထန္ ပစ္ခတ္ေနခ်ိန္ျဖစ္ပါတယ္။ ပစ္ခတ္မႈေတြက တျဖည္းျဖည္းနဲ႔ နီးကပ္လာတယ္။ ေျပာရမယ္ဆိုရင္ ေၾကာက္ေတာ့ ေၾကာက္တာေပါ့ဗ်ာ။ ဒါေပမယ့္ ေဒသခံေတြကေတာ့ အဆုိးဆံုးအတြက္ ျပင္ဆင္ထားၾကတယ္။ ဘုရားရွိခိုးေက်ာင္းေတြကို ဖြင့္ထားၾကတယ္။ က်ေနာ္ သတိထားမိသေလာက္ ေျပာရရင္ လံုျခံဳဖို႔နဲ႔ ဘုရားသခင္ ကြယ္ကာေစာင့္ေရွာက္ဖို႔ဆိုၿ
Q: Now when you said civilians were preparing to fight, were they actually arming themselves or was the Kachin Independence Army arming them or what was happening?
GH: I didn’t see them. They were going to places where there were weapons or where they were being taught how to use weapons in a firing shoot, including women.
ေမး - ေဒသခံျပည္သူလူထုက ခုခံတိုက္ခုိက္ဖို႔ ျပင္ဆင္ေနတယ္ဆိုေတာ့ သူတို႔ဘာသာ သူတို႔ လက္နက္တပ္ဆင္တာလား၊ ေကအိုင္ေအက တပ္ဆင္ေပးတာလား။ ဒါမွမဟုတ္ ဘယ္လိုျဖစ္တာလဲ။
ေျဖ - က်ေနာ္ မ်က္ျမင္ေတာ့ မေတြ႕ခဲ့ဘူး။ လက္နက္ရွိတဲ့ေနရာေတြ၊ အပစ္အခတ္သင္တန္းေပးတဲ့ ေနရာေတြကို သြားေနၾကတယ္။ အမ်ဳိးသမီးေတြလည္း ပါတယ္။
Q: Now this news comes as one of the final hill stations around Laiza reportedly failed this weekend which, kind of, opens the way to the rebel stronghold from the Burmese Army? What are the possible scenarios? What are people thinking on the ground as far as with regards to the state’s development?
GH: There’re two possibilities here. One that there will be a full front assault on Laiza and it is the KIA headquarters and if that happens, the town of Laiza will fight back, the civilians will fight back. What I’m really afraid of or concerned about is that there may be some kind of bloodbath in fact and this is quite different fighting from any kind of fighting I’ve seen in Burma before. This is not low intensity guerrilla activity, it’s not saffron revolution, not 1988. It’s very heavy, intense, military assault and this is difficult to convey to people. This is a war with trenches and bunkers etc and it is possible that a full scale assault would take place in Laiza and the effects on civilian population will be catastrophic and the civilians know that they have nowhere to flee. That’s the problem; they’re trapped against Chinese border and they have nowhere to flee. In other words, they have no alternative paths but to fight. On the other hand to answer your question, it may be the intention of the Burma Army simply to surround the city, dominate it, control it and cut it off from the rest of Kachin State. Quietly to destroy it. We don’t quite know but how it behaves depends on the International Community’s response to what’s going on. And if that response is sufficiently critical, sufficiently challenging, sufficiently confronting, the Burma Army in that area may be actually afraid to go too far. So that is what I think we should be trying to do.
ေမး - လိုင္ဇာနားက ေနာက္ဆံုး ခံတပ္ကုန္းေတြထဲက တစ္ခုကို လက္လႊတ္လိုက္ရတယ္လို႔ သိရတယ္။ ျမန္မာစစ္တပ္အတြက္ ေကအိုင္အိုဌာနခ်ဳပ္ဆီကို လမ္းပြင့္သြားသလို ျဖစ္သြားတာေပါ့။ ဘာေတြ ဆက္ျဖစ္လာႏိုင္သလဲ။ ဖြံ႕ၿဖိဳးေရးေဆာင္ရြက္ခ်က္ေ
ေျဖ - ျဖစ္ႏိုင္ေျခ ႏွစ္ခုရွိတယ္။ တစ္ခုက ေကအိုင္ေအဌာနခ်ဳပ္ လိုင္ဇာကို အလံုးအရင္းနဲ႔ ၀င္တိုက္ႏိုင္တယ္။ တကယ္လို႔ ၀င္တုိက္ခဲ့ရင္ လိုင္ဇာၿမိဳ႕ေန လူထုကလည္း ျပန္ခုခံၾကလိမ့္မယ္။ က်ေနာ္ တကယ္စိုးရိမ္တာက ေသြးေခ်ာင္းစီး သတ္ျဖတ္မႈႀကီး ျဖစ္လာမွာကိုပဲ။ လက္ရွိ တိုက္ခိုက္မႈေတြဟာ ျမန္မာျပည္မွာ က်ေနာ္ၾကံဳခဲ့ဖူးတဲ့ တိုက္ခိုက္မႈေတြနဲ႔ ေတာ္ေတာ္ကို ျခားနားပါတယ္။ ၿခံဳခိုတိုက္ခိုက္မႈ သက္သက္မဟုတ္သလို၊ ေရႊ၀ါေရာင္ေတာ္လွန္ေရးလိုလည
တျခား ျဖစ္ႏိုင္ေျခတစ္ခုက ျမန္မာစစ္တပ္အေနနဲ႔ လိုင္ဇာၿမိဳ႕ကို ၀ိုင္းရံထားမယ္၊ ထိန္းခ်ဳပ္မယ္၊ ၿပီေတာ့ တျခား ကခ်င္ေဒသေတြနဲ႔ ဆက္သြယ္ေရးကို ျဖတ္ေတာက္ၿပီး တျဖည္းျဖည္းနဲ႔ ညွင္းၿပီး ေျခမႈန္းပစ္မယ့္ သေဘာပဲ။ က်ေနာ္တို႔ ေသခ်ာမသိႏိုင္ေပမယ့္ လက္ရွိျဖစ္ပ်က္ေနတဲ့ကိစၥေတြ
Q: With regards to that, where is China factored in this?
GH: China could well play a really positive role here. I say ‘could’ because the areas we’re talking about in Northern Kachin State are adjacent to China and China does not want a war on its doorstep and it does not want hundreds of thousands of refugees flowing into China. So it’s very much in China’s interest and they’ve said this several times that they want a ceasefire, they want a cessation of the hostilities. So in fact its position is similar to the EU, its position similar to the UN, its position is similar to the US. They could well be, if they act quickly, a kind of united front from China, the EU, the UN and the US to impose a solution, a solution which could be a ceasefire and hopefully a long term peaceful settlement.
ေမး - ဒီကိစၥနဲ႔ ပတ္သက္ၿပီး တရုတ္ကို ဘယ္လိုျမင္သလဲ။
ေျဖ - တရုတ္အေနနဲ႔ ဒီကိစၥမွာ အင္မတန္ အေရးပါတဲ့ အျပဳသေဘာအခန္းက႑မွာ ပါ၀င္ႏိုင္ပါတယ္။ က်ေနာ္ ဘာလို႔ ‘ပါ၀င္ႏိုင္တယ္’လို႔ ေျပာသလဲဆိုေတာ့ ကခ်င္ျပည္နဲ႔ တရုတ္ႏိုင္ငံဟာ နယ္နမိတ္ ထိစပ္ေနတဲ့အတြက္ တရုတ္အေနနဲ႔ စစ္မျဖစ္ေစခ်င္ဘူး။ သူ႔နယ္နမိတ္ထဲကို ေထာင္ေသာင္းခ်ီတဲ့ စစ္ေျပးဒုကၡသည္ေတြ ၀င္ေရာက္လာမွာကို မလိုလားဘူး။ တရုတ္ရဲ႕ အက်ဳိးအျမတ္ေတြခ်ည္းသက္သက္ ျဖစ္ေနတဲ့အတြက္ အပစ္အခတ္ရပ္စဲဖို႔၊ ပစ္ခတ္တိုက္ခိုက္မႈေတြ ရပ္ဆိုင္းဖို႔ ထပ္ခါထပ္ခါ ေျပာေနတာပါ။ တကယ္တမ္းေတာ့ တရုတ္ရဲ႕ အေနအထားက အီးယူ၊ ကုလနဲ႔ အေမရိကန္ေတြနဲ႔ တူတယ္။ ဒီႏိုင္ငံ၊ အဖြဲ႕အစည္းေတြ ညီညီညြတ္ညြတ္နဲ႔ အပစ္အခတ္ရပ္စဲႏိုင္ဖို႔တင္မ
Q: From my understanding, you had some very heroic accounts of what they’ve had to deal with in the midst of these fightings. Can you tell me a little bit about what you saw and what you heard?
GH: To answer to your question, you have to remember that the Kachin are really united! They’re not like the Karen divided between the KNU and DKBA or most Shan groups dividing. They are very, very, very united! The civilians would stand with the army and the army would stand with the civilians. And so that’s why I’m very concerned that the civilians themselves may be directly targeted by the Burmese Army. One of the additional reasons why I’m really concerned about is the stories that I’ve listened to from the civilians who’ve fled fighting and they were some of the worst that I’ve ever heard from Burma. A woman bandied to death with a baby of 17 days old. A women gang raped to death. A man shot in the stomach then massively mutilated afterwards. I mean things that one doesn’t want to talk about but these were the worst kind of stories I’ve heard in Burma. So my fear is that this could be replicated against the civilian population. And I think some of these need to bear in mind is that we’re not just here talking about Laiza. We’re talking about a corridor, may be 5, 6, 7 miles long for hundreds of miles, in which there are hundreds of thousands – below hundreds of thousands – of civilians trapped between the Burma Army and China. So the entire civilian population which is really under threat.
ေမး - ဒီတိုက္ပြဲေတြ၊ အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြကို သူတို႔(ေဒသခံ)ေတြ ဘယ္လိုဘယ္ပံု ရဲရဲ၀ံ့၀ံ့ ရင္ဆိုင္ျဖတ္သန္းခဲ့ရသလဲဆို
ေျဖ - ခင္ဗ်ား ေမးခြန္းကို ေျဖဖို႔အတြက္ဆိုရင္ ကခ်င္ေတြဟာ ေတာ္ေတာ္စည္းလံုးညီညြတ္တယ္ ဆိုတာကို အမွတ္ရဖို႔ လိုလိမ့္မယ္ဗ်။ သူတို႔က ကရင္ေတြ ေကအင္ယူနဲ႕ ဒီေကဘီေအ ဆိုၿပီး ကြဲသလို ကြဲမေနဘူး၊ ရွမ္းအဖြဲ႕ေတြလိုလည္း အဖြဲ႕အမ်ားႀကီး ကြဲမေနဘူး။ ကခ်င္ေတြဟာ အင္မတန္ စည္းလံုးတာဗ်။ ျပည္သူလူထုလည္း စစ္တပ္(ေကအိုင္ေအ)ဘက္က ရပ္တည္တယ္။ စစ္တပ္(ေကအိုင္ေအ) ကလည္း လူထုဘက္က ရပ္တည္တယ္။ ဒါ့ေၾကာင့္ တကယ္လို႔သာ ျမန္မာစစ္တပ္၀င္လာရင္ ျပည္သူလူထုကို ပစ္ခတ္တိုက္ခိုက္မွာကို က်ေနာ္ စိုးရိမ္တာဗ်။ က်ေနာ့္ စိုးရိမ္မႈရဲ႕ အေၾကာင္းတရား ေနာက္တစ္ခုက စစ္ေျပးဒုကၡသည္ေတြဆီက ၾကားရတဲ့ အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြပဲ။ ျမန္မာျပည္နဲ႔ ပတ္သက္လို႔ ၾကားဖူးသမွ် အေၾကာင္းအရာေတြထဲမွာေတာ့ အဆိုးရြားဆံုး အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြပဲ။ (၁၇)ရက္သား ကေလးရဲ႕ မိခင္ကို ရိုက္သတ္တာ၊ အမ်ဳိးသမီးတစ္ဦးကို အုပ္စုလိုက္ မုဒိန္းက်င့္ၿပီး သတ္ပစ္တာ၊ အမ်ဳိးသားတစ္ဦးရဲ႕ ဗိုက္ကို ပစ္ခတ္ၿပီး ခႏၶာကိုယ္ကို အပိုင္းပိုင္းျဖတ္ပစ္တာ၊ စတာေတြေပါ့။ ဒီလို အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြကို ေျပာလို႔မေကာင္းေပမယ့္ ျမန္မာျပည္နဲ႔ ပတ္သက္လို႔ က်ေနာ္ၾကားဖူးသေလာက္မွာေတာ့
Q: These stories run, kind of, counter to the era which was built around Burma in the last couple of years as it begins to open up. What is the military’s behaviour say about the legitimacy of these reforms in your mind from what you’ve seen in the last week?
GH: They put a very, very severe question mark over these reforms. And remember, what I witnessed is massive warfare. You know artillery, helicopters, jet bombers and massive human wave attacks. This is extremely systematic onslaught on Kachin people and how can the International Community possibly be engaged in a liberalization reform process while this is going on? It doesn’t really make any sense and it puts a huge question mark over the whole reform process.
ေမး - လြန္ခဲ့တဲ့ ႏွစ္ႏွစ္ေလာက္က စၿပီး ေျပာင္းလဲလာတဲ့ ျမန္မာႏိုင္ငံရဲ႕ ေခတ္စနစ္အသစ္နဲ႔ ဒီအျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြက ဆန္႔က်င္ေနသလိုပဲ။ လြန္ခဲ့တဲ့ တပတ္က ခင္ဗ်ား ျမင္ေတြ႕ခဲ့တဲ့ အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြအရ လက္ရွိ ျပုျပင္ေျပာင္းလဲေရးေတြ တရား၀င္ျဖစ္ဖို႔အတြက္ ျမန္မာစစ္တပ္ရဲ႕ အျပုအမူကို ခင္ဗ်ား ဘယ္လိုထင္သလဲ။
ေျဖ - ဒီျပဳျပင္ေျပာင္းလဲေရးေတြရဲ
Q: We’re here with Guy Horton who recently returned from Northern Kachin State around the conflict area. Thank you for coming by.
GH: Thanks for inviting me.
ေမး - စစ္ပြဲေတြ ျဖစ္ပြားေနတဲ့ ကခ်င္ျပည္က မၾကာေသးခင္က ျပန္ေရာက္လာတဲ့ ဂိုင္းေဟာ္တန္ပါ။ ၾကြရာက္လာတဲ့အတြက္ ေက်းဇူးတင္ပါတယ္။
ေျဖ - ဖိတ္ၾကားတဲ့အတြက္ ေက်းဇူးပါ။
Q: Now while you were there, you spent a lot of time interviewing IDPs who’ve been exposed to conflict for about a year a half now. Tell me a little bit about what you saw and experienced while you were there?
GH: Where I was based, I was in air-shot of fairly continual heavy artillery fire and heavy mortar fire and it was gradually getting closer. So there was a sense of panic – controlled panic, I supposed I should say – in the area where I was but people were expecting the worst and the churches were opened – I noticed – 24 hours a day people were praying for protection, for deliverance and civilians were quietly preparing to fight which is why I’m particularly concerned that there may be some disastrous – humanitarian disaster at the end of all this.
ေမး - စစ္ေဘးဒဏ္ကို တစ္ႏွစ္ေက်ာ္ ခံစားေနခဲ့ၾကတဲ့ စစ္ေဘးေရွာင္လူထုကို အခ်ိန္ယူ ေတြ႕ဆံုေမးျမန္းခဲ့တယ္ ဆိုေတာ့ ဘာေတြျမင္ခဲ့သလဲ၊ ဘာေတြ ၾကံဳေတြ႕ခဲ့သလဲဆိုတာ နည္းနည္းေျပာျပပါဦး။
ေျဖ - က်ေနာ္ အဲဒီမွာ ရွိေနခ်ိန္မွာ ေလေၾကာင္းတိုက္ခုိက္မႈေတြ၊ အေျမာက္ေတြ၊ ေမာ္တာေတြနဲ႔ ျပင္းျပင္းထန္ထန္ ပစ္ခတ္ေနခ်ိန္ျဖစ္ပါတယ္။ ပစ္ခတ္မႈေတြက တျဖည္းျဖည္းနဲ႔ နီးကပ္လာတယ္။ ေျပာရမယ္ဆိုရင္ ေၾကာက္ေတာ့ ေၾကာက္တာေပါ့ဗ်ာ။ ဒါေပမယ့္ ေဒသခံေတြကေတာ့ အဆုိးဆံုးအတြက္ ျပင္ဆင္ထားၾကတယ္။ ဘုရားရွိခိုးေက်ာင္းေတြကို ဖြင့္ထားၾကတယ္။ က်ေနာ္ သတိထားမိသေလာက္ ေျပာရရင္ လံုျခံဳဖို႔နဲ႔ ဘုရားသခင္ ကြယ္ကာေစာင့္ေရွာက္ဖို႔ဆိုၿ
Q: Now when you said civilians were preparing to fight, were they actually arming themselves or was the Kachin Independence Army arming them or what was happening?
GH: I didn’t see them. They were going to places where there were weapons or where they were being taught how to use weapons in a firing shoot, including women.
ေမး - ေဒသခံျပည္သူလူထုက ခုခံတိုက္ခုိက္ဖို႔ ျပင္ဆင္ေနတယ္ဆိုေတာ့ သူတို႔ဘာသာ သူတို႔ လက္နက္တပ္ဆင္တာလား၊ ေကအိုင္ေအက တပ္ဆင္ေပးတာလား။ ဒါမွမဟုတ္ ဘယ္လိုျဖစ္တာလဲ။
ေျဖ - က်ေနာ္ မ်က္ျမင္ေတာ့ မေတြ႕ခဲ့ဘူး။ လက္နက္ရွိတဲ့ေနရာေတြ၊ အပစ္အခတ္သင္တန္းေပးတဲ့ ေနရာေတြကို သြားေနၾကတယ္။ အမ်ဳိးသမီးေတြလည္း ပါတယ္။
Q: Now this news comes as one of the final hill stations around Laiza reportedly failed this weekend which, kind of, opens the way to the rebel stronghold from the Burmese Army? What are the possible scenarios? What are people thinking on the ground as far as with regards to the state’s development?
GH: There’re two possibilities here. One that there will be a full front assault on Laiza and it is the KIA headquarters and if that happens, the town of Laiza will fight back, the civilians will fight back. What I’m really afraid of or concerned about is that there may be some kind of bloodbath in fact and this is quite different fighting from any kind of fighting I’ve seen in Burma before. This is not low intensity guerrilla activity, it’s not saffron revolution, not 1988. It’s very heavy, intense, military assault and this is difficult to convey to people. This is a war with trenches and bunkers etc and it is possible that a full scale assault would take place in Laiza and the effects on civilian population will be catastrophic and the civilians know that they have nowhere to flee. That’s the problem; they’re trapped against Chinese border and they have nowhere to flee. In other words, they have no alternative paths but to fight. On the other hand to answer your question, it may be the intention of the Burma Army simply to surround the city, dominate it, control it and cut it off from the rest of Kachin State. Quietly to destroy it. We don’t quite know but how it behaves depends on the International Community’s response to what’s going on. And if that response is sufficiently critical, sufficiently challenging, sufficiently confronting, the Burma Army in that area may be actually afraid to go too far. So that is what I think we should be trying to do.
ေမး - လိုင္ဇာနားက ေနာက္ဆံုး ခံတပ္ကုန္းေတြထဲက တစ္ခုကို လက္လႊတ္လိုက္ရတယ္လို႔ သိရတယ္။ ျမန္မာစစ္တပ္အတြက္ ေကအိုင္အိုဌာနခ်ဳပ္ဆီကို လမ္းပြင့္သြားသလို ျဖစ္သြားတာေပါ့။ ဘာေတြ ဆက္ျဖစ္လာႏိုင္သလဲ။ ဖြံ႕ၿဖိဳးေရးေဆာင္ရြက္ခ်က္ေ
ေျဖ - ျဖစ္ႏိုင္ေျခ ႏွစ္ခုရွိတယ္။ တစ္ခုက ေကအိုင္ေအဌာနခ်ဳပ္ လိုင္ဇာကို အလံုးအရင္းနဲ႔ ၀င္တိုက္ႏိုင္တယ္။ တကယ္လို႔ ၀င္တုိက္ခဲ့ရင္ လိုင္ဇာၿမိဳ႕ေန လူထုကလည္း ျပန္ခုခံၾကလိမ့္မယ္။ က်ေနာ္ တကယ္စိုးရိမ္တာက ေသြးေခ်ာင္းစီး သတ္ျဖတ္မႈႀကီး ျဖစ္လာမွာကိုပဲ။ လက္ရွိ တိုက္ခိုက္မႈေတြဟာ ျမန္မာျပည္မွာ က်ေနာ္ၾကံဳခဲ့ဖူးတဲ့ တိုက္ခိုက္မႈေတြနဲ႔ ေတာ္ေတာ္ကို ျခားနားပါတယ္။ ၿခံဳခိုတိုက္ခိုက္မႈ သက္သက္မဟုတ္သလို၊ ေရႊ၀ါေရာင္ေတာ္လွန္ေရးလိုလည
တျခား ျဖစ္ႏိုင္ေျခတစ္ခုက ျမန္မာစစ္တပ္အေနနဲ႔ လိုင္ဇာၿမိဳ႕ကို ၀ိုင္းရံထားမယ္၊ ထိန္းခ်ဳပ္မယ္၊ ၿပီေတာ့ တျခား ကခ်င္ေဒသေတြနဲ႔ ဆက္သြယ္ေရးကို ျဖတ္ေတာက္ၿပီး တျဖည္းျဖည္းနဲ႔ ညွင္းၿပီး ေျခမႈန္းပစ္မယ့္ သေဘာပဲ။ က်ေနာ္တို႔ ေသခ်ာမသိႏိုင္ေပမယ့္ လက္ရွိျဖစ္ပ်က္ေနတဲ့ကိစၥေတြ
Q: With regards to that, where is China factored in this?
GH: China could well play a really positive role here. I say ‘could’ because the areas we’re talking about in Northern Kachin State are adjacent to China and China does not want a war on its doorstep and it does not want hundreds of thousands of refugees flowing into China. So it’s very much in China’s interest and they’ve said this several times that they want a ceasefire, they want a cessation of the hostilities. So in fact its position is similar to the EU, its position similar to the UN, its position is similar to the US. They could well be, if they act quickly, a kind of united front from China, the EU, the UN and the US to impose a solution, a solution which could be a ceasefire and hopefully a long term peaceful settlement.
ေမး - ဒီကိစၥနဲ႔ ပတ္သက္ၿပီး တရုတ္ကို ဘယ္လိုျမင္သလဲ။
ေျဖ - တရုတ္အေနနဲ႔ ဒီကိစၥမွာ အင္မတန္ အေရးပါတဲ့ အျပဳသေဘာအခန္းက႑မွာ ပါ၀င္ႏိုင္ပါတယ္။ က်ေနာ္ ဘာလို႔ ‘ပါ၀င္ႏိုင္တယ္’လို႔ ေျပာသလဲဆိုေတာ့ ကခ်င္ျပည္နဲ႔ တရုတ္ႏိုင္ငံဟာ နယ္နမိတ္ ထိစပ္ေနတဲ့အတြက္ တရုတ္အေနနဲ႔ စစ္မျဖစ္ေစခ်င္ဘူး။ သူ႔နယ္နမိတ္ထဲကို ေထာင္ေသာင္းခ်ီတဲ့ စစ္ေျပးဒုကၡသည္ေတြ ၀င္ေရာက္လာမွာကို မလိုလားဘူး။ တရုတ္ရဲ႕ အက်ဳိးအျမတ္ေတြခ်ည္းသက္သက္ ျဖစ္ေနတဲ့အတြက္ အပစ္အခတ္ရပ္စဲဖို႔၊ ပစ္ခတ္တိုက္ခိုက္မႈေတြ ရပ္ဆိုင္းဖို႔ ထပ္ခါထပ္ခါ ေျပာေနတာပါ။ တကယ္တမ္းေတာ့ တရုတ္ရဲ႕ အေနအထားက အီးယူ၊ ကုလနဲ႔ အေမရိကန္ေတြနဲ႔ တူတယ္။ ဒီႏိုင္ငံ၊ အဖြဲ႕အစည္းေတြ ညီညီညြတ္ညြတ္နဲ႔ အပစ္အခတ္ရပ္စဲႏိုင္ဖို႔တင္မ
Q: From my understanding, you had some very heroic accounts of what they’ve had to deal with in the midst of these fightings. Can you tell me a little bit about what you saw and what you heard?
GH: To answer to your question, you have to remember that the Kachin are really united! They’re not like the Karen divided between the KNU and DKBA or most Shan groups dividing. They are very, very, very united! The civilians would stand with the army and the army would stand with the civilians. And so that’s why I’m very concerned that the civilians themselves may be directly targeted by the Burmese Army. One of the additional reasons why I’m really concerned about is the stories that I’ve listened to from the civilians who’ve fled fighting and they were some of the worst that I’ve ever heard from Burma. A woman bandied to death with a baby of 17 days old. A women gang raped to death. A man shot in the stomach then massively mutilated afterwards. I mean things that one doesn’t want to talk about but these were the worst kind of stories I’ve heard in Burma. So my fear is that this could be replicated against the civilian population. And I think some of these need to bear in mind is that we’re not just here talking about Laiza. We’re talking about a corridor, may be 5, 6, 7 miles long for hundreds of miles, in which there are hundreds of thousands – below hundreds of thousands – of civilians trapped between the Burma Army and China. So the entire civilian population which is really under threat.
ေမး - ဒီတိုက္ပြဲေတြ၊ အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြကို သူတို႔(ေဒသခံ)ေတြ ဘယ္လိုဘယ္ပံု ရဲရဲ၀ံ့၀ံ့ ရင္ဆိုင္ျဖတ္သန္းခဲ့ရသလဲဆို
ေျဖ - ခင္ဗ်ား ေမးခြန္းကို ေျဖဖို႔အတြက္ဆိုရင္ ကခ်င္ေတြဟာ ေတာ္ေတာ္စည္းလံုးညီညြတ္တယ္ ဆိုတာကို အမွတ္ရဖို႔ လိုလိမ့္မယ္ဗ်။ သူတို႔က ကရင္ေတြ ေကအင္ယူနဲ႕ ဒီေကဘီေအ ဆိုၿပီး ကြဲသလို ကြဲမေနဘူး၊ ရွမ္းအဖြဲ႕ေတြလိုလည္း အဖြဲ႕အမ်ားႀကီး ကြဲမေနဘူး။ ကခ်င္ေတြဟာ အင္မတန္ စည္းလံုးတာဗ်။ ျပည္သူလူထုလည္း စစ္တပ္(ေကအိုင္ေအ)ဘက္က ရပ္တည္တယ္။ စစ္တပ္(ေကအိုင္ေအ) ကလည္း လူထုဘက္က ရပ္တည္တယ္။ ဒါ့ေၾကာင့္ တကယ္လို႔သာ ျမန္မာစစ္တပ္၀င္လာရင္ ျပည္သူလူထုကို ပစ္ခတ္တိုက္ခိုက္မွာကို က်ေနာ္ စိုးရိမ္တာဗ်။ က်ေနာ့္ စိုးရိမ္မႈရဲ႕ အေၾကာင္းတရား ေနာက္တစ္ခုက စစ္ေျပးဒုကၡသည္ေတြဆီက ၾကားရတဲ့ အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြပဲ။ ျမန္မာျပည္နဲ႔ ပတ္သက္လို႔ ၾကားဖူးသမွ် အေၾကာင္းအရာေတြထဲမွာေတာ့ အဆိုးရြားဆံုး အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြပဲ။ (၁၇)ရက္သား ကေလးရဲ႕ မိခင္ကို ရိုက္သတ္တာ၊ အမ်ဳိးသမီးတစ္ဦးကို အုပ္စုလိုက္ မုဒိန္းက်င့္ၿပီး သတ္ပစ္တာ၊ အမ်ဳိးသားတစ္ဦးရဲ႕ ဗိုက္ကို ပစ္ခတ္ၿပီး ခႏၶာကိုယ္ကို အပိုင္းပိုင္းျဖတ္ပစ္တာ၊ စတာေတြေပါ့။ ဒီလို အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြကို ေျပာလို႔မေကာင္းေပမယ့္ ျမန္မာျပည္နဲ႔ ပတ္သက္လို႔ က်ေနာ္ၾကားဖူးသေလာက္မွာေတာ့
Q: These stories run, kind of, counter to the era which was built around Burma in the last couple of years as it begins to open up. What is the military’s behaviour say about the legitimacy of these reforms in your mind from what you’ve seen in the last week?
GH: They put a very, very severe question mark over these reforms. And remember, what I witnessed is massive warfare. You know artillery, helicopters, jet bombers and massive human wave attacks. This is extremely systematic onslaught on Kachin people and how can the International Community possibly be engaged in a liberalization reform process while this is going on? It doesn’t really make any sense and it puts a huge question mark over the whole reform process.
ေမး - လြန္ခဲ့တဲ့ ႏွစ္ႏွစ္ေလာက္က စၿပီး ေျပာင္းလဲလာတဲ့ ျမန္မာႏိုင္ငံရဲ႕ ေခတ္စနစ္အသစ္နဲ႔ ဒီအျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြက ဆန္႔က်င္ေနသလိုပဲ။ လြန္ခဲ့တဲ့ တပတ္က ခင္ဗ်ား ျမင္ေတြ႕ခဲ့တဲ့ အျဖစ္အပ်က္ေတြအရ လက္ရွိ ျပုျပင္ေျပာင္းလဲေရးေတြ တရား၀င္ျဖစ္ဖို႔အတြက္ ျမန္မာစစ္တပ္ရဲ႕ အျပုအမူကို ခင္ဗ်ား ဘယ္လိုထင္သလဲ။
ေျဖ - ဒီျပဳျပင္ေျပာင္းလဲေရးေတြရဲ
(ျမန္မာျပန္ကိုု Lachid kachin မွ ကူးယူေဖာ္ျပသည္)
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